I too photographed this bird. It was not much larger than the ring billed
gulls it was swimming with, for whatever that is worth. Plus it did not
look like a snow goose in the field.

On another note, the gull identified as the black tailed gull on the roof
of one of the blue industrial buildings (Sunday afternoon - aka goose day)
had it's ID  "changed" to a lesser black backed gull after someone looked
at a digiscoped photo ~ an hour after the original sighting. Have not seen
any mention of less black backed.

Renee Tressler







On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Lehman, Jay <[log in to unmask]> wrote:

> Because it was announced to the list serve on Sunday that I was the one to
> identify the small white goose at Ashtabula as a Ross' Goose, I decided to
> respond to this thread.  The small white goose that I ID'd as Ross's Goose
> had a relatively small conical bill, with a straight vertical posterior
> edge (toward the eye) and bluish gray base of the bill and a steep forehead
> and rounded crown and head shape.  There was some grin patch, but it did
> not include the large bulge in the grin patch as in Snow Goose nor was the
> amount of grin extensive.   I know that discussions have made the point
> that Ross's have no grin mark, but I have read discussions that indicate
> Ross's often do have some grin line.  That's also been my experience
> studying the large flocks of Ross's Geese in California in the fall/winter.
>  To ID the bird I concentrated on the head shape and bill shape.  I studied
> the bird though a telescope at perhaps 50 yards, perhaps more.  Jerry
> Talkington showed me a close-up photo that he took on Sunday while I was at
> Lake Shore Park.  His close up photo taken at a perpendicular angle to the
> bird showed a steeply rising forehead and the bill shape that I describe
> above in this message.
>
> For whatever it is worth, when I arrived on the scene, I was told the
> small white goose was a Snow Goose.  The bird I ID'd did not have a Snow
> Goose bill, and definitely did not have the concave curvature in the
> feathers at the posterior edge toward the eye.  The bill and head shape was
> wrong for Snow Goose and did not show a sloping profile as in Snow Goose.
>  I'm not sure what to make of Matt's photos.  The head and bill shape on
> the bird in those photos is not what I recall in Jerry T's close-up photos.
>  Perhaps it is the angle or what the bird was doing when Matt's photos were
> snapped?
>
>
> Bill Whan asked, "Any thoughts from others?"
>
> I'm dubious of the emphasis on size, and particularly using average length
> measurements, which are frequently if not always taken with the bird laid
> out as if or really dead from the end of the bill to the tip of the tail.
>  That requires a good imagination to visualize a live small white goose
> laid out next to a live Mallard laid out for a size comparison.   In
> addition, a Mallard and a Ross's or Snow Goose do not have the same shape
> and body bulk and appear to have different neck lengths.  Therefore, in
> real life not laid out for length measurement, the length measurement
> quoted in field guides and references has limited use in my opinion.
>
> In addition, an average length measurement as a means of comparison needs
> to also include the variability in that average measurement.  An apparent
> difference in average length indicated by two average lengths, for Mallard
> and Ross's Goose, for example, may not be meaningful when the variation in
> both numbers is taken into consideration.  When the variation in the
> average lengths is included, the results may indicate significant overlap
> in the average values such that a real difference cannot be detected in the
> field with live birds not laid out for exact measurement.  (I couldn't
> resist making this point.  I am a trained, advanced degreed Analytical
> Chemist, aka measurement scientist, and work with experimental results and
> variability in the data in my full time job.  Sorry if this steps on a few
> toes!)
>
> I'm glad Vic Fazio chimed in on this discussion thread!
> Jay
>
> Jay G. Lehman
> Cincinnati, OH
> [log in to unmask]
>
>
>
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