Hi all, I like Keith's open model very much (just in case: my
suggestion about 330/430 and 651 wasn't at all meant to imply that I
want to keep tracks -- just to give students who want to continue on
with poetry an option).
I don't think revising the learning outcomes is a problem, or a reason
not to change the major.
As for reasons for the poetry enrollment problem: arggh, I don't know.
It might be to do with our not teaching 226 enough -- that combined
with vocationalism. Maybe we suck and everybody hates us. I don't
_think_ that's true -- our evals are good, anyway.
We should try to find out whether other programs are encountering
poetry brain-drain or whether it's a Miami-specific thing.
I do want myself to teach poetry classes at least once in awhile. I'd
be delighted to teach hybrid/performance classes too. I don't think
I'm at all cut out for Literary Marketplace but Jody shouldn't have to
teach it all the time; I'd be willing to take it on once in awhile.
Cathy
On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 10:57 AM, Goodman, Eric <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> Damn, I love Billy Bragg. Wish I'd known
>
>
> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 9:42 AM, Tuma, Keith <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>
>> Really busy with admin crap today but a few points while we're thinking
>> about them.
>>
>> The learning outcomes writing in the major plan business cris mentions
>> would indeed have to be tweaked if we go with a revision such as the one I
>> propose, but I don't think that's a big deal. We could still use most of
>> what we have. If we revise the major and get it through CAS and etc. next
>> fall I'd be happy to sit down and tweak that paperwork in an hour or two
>> early in the spring. Amy Summerville of Psychology will be the writing
>> representative on the CAS Curriculum Committee. Essentially we'd be looking
>> for learning outcomes that would relate equally to all genres. It would
>> simplify the system, but it would be a little work, yes.
>>
>> I have to admit to being a little boggled when I hear that we can't offer
>> Literary Marketplace as a requirement because we only teach one section of
>> it a year. Well, of course we do, in the current model. But my sense of the
>> course is that it's a big success and really valuable, so why not offer two
>> sections of it every year? That could cover 60-70 students and get us to
>> where we need to be, no? We'd move somebody out of a 226 to teach it.
>> Anyway, as idea.
>>
>> Like cris I like the idea of moving beyond the binary. It's not as if no
>> poetry or fiction, or what usually counts as such, would be taught in a
>> performance writing/hybrid forms course.
>>
>> Those select students who want a 430 could take 330 a second time as 430
>> with the additional assignments.
>>
>> There's some kind of choir that's started up under the arch as I type. I
>> think I must have died and gone to heaven. Either that or it's the end of
>> this job. Or my ears are still ringing from Billy Bragg last night at the
>> Newport church.
>>
>> Keith
>>
>> On Wed, May 1, 2013 at 8:10 AM, cheek, cris <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>
>>> HI,
>>>
>>> i think i must be being thick. Well, i often feel like i'm being thick.
>>> Can i try to spell it out as i am trying to understand it?
>>>
>>> The idea is that students would take a 300/400 section. Students would be
>>> combined in one class. Senior students would take some kind of extra
>>> assignment on top. Those wanting or needing 2 workshops in a poetry track
>>> could or would take it twice?
>>>
>>> And / or some of those students (those who have taken 300/400 already)
>>> would or could take a 500/600 workshop?
>>>
>>> I'm just trying to get my head around the mechanics for now. This does
>>> seem like a sticking plaster still.
>>>
>>> I'm working with Patrick and Jerry to get a student who took 320 into
>>> 430, she wrote yesterday expressing her desire to do so . .
>>>
>>> i'm far more with Margaret about moving away from the tracks and even
>>> towards a senior portfolio type option . .
>>>
>>> and i find the basic tenet of Keith's structural suggestion more
>>> forward-looking. In my mind the binary looks twentieth century . . but then
>>> i'm out on another planet and will run where the pack wishes to run here,
>>> providing it addresses a problem that i cannot see going away soon.
>>>
>>> Good question about moving 430 to the spring Eric. The question is - who
>>> would teach it? I will be the only so-called poetry person on campus in the
>>> spring . . .
>>>
>>>
>>> cris
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with Cathy that some provision should be made to allow for a
>>>> two-course progression in poetry. either 330/430 or a 500/600 version of
>>>> the gad workshop (which was more common in the early 90's, I believe) could
>>>> well work. But the two at 300, two at 400 model seems to me a good option.
>>>>
>>>> Is there anyway to move 430 to the spring and recruit more effectively
>>>> to it?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 8:00 PM, Melbye, Eric <[log in to unmask]>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> cris: re: a MUH meeting re: regional roles in CW revision: YES.
>>>>> (Apologies for being so colonic.)
>>>>>
>>>>> Navigating the emerging Oxford-regional academic relationship is messy,
>>>>> to say the least. But instigating significant revisions to the program
>>>>> whilst everyone is still figuring things out seems smart.
>>>>>
>>>>> _________________________
>>>>> Eric Melbye
>>>>> Associate Professor, English/Creative Writing
>>>>> Miami University Middletown
>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 6:39 PM, cheek, cris <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I DO like the idea of developing a section of 321 online quite a bit
>>>>>> Eric. Expanding the menu on the regionals too. Dam i do not like this "main"
>>>>>> "regional" thing one bit.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd like to get both yourself and Abigail Purdy into our meetings. If
>>>>>> we held a meeting early in the fall to coordinate between us all could you
>>>>>> make it to Hamilton? Copying Abigail and Sarah Rose on this message right
>>>>>> now. Welcome everybody!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cris
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 5:04 PM, Melbye, Eric <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I wonder if 321 and some other upper-division courses in Keith's plan
>>>>>>> could be offered online. I could probably develop/teach an online 321, for
>>>>>>> example. And there's a push to offer more upper-division lit courses on the
>>>>>>> regionals, or at least at MUM, that might enable us to offer a couple more
>>>>>>> sections of some courses, or possibly expand the menu of course offerings a
>>>>>>> bit.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Eric MUM
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> _________________________
>>>>>>> Eric Melbye
>>>>>>> Associate Professor, English/Creative Writing
>>>>>>> Miami University Middletown
>>>>>>> [log in to unmask]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:37 PM, Schloss, David <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Good ideas, both, Margaret. And might help our 311/2 if they need
>>>>>>>> any help.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> D
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:29 PM, Luongo, Margaret
>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Post 1800--sorry.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 3:28 PM, Luongo, Margaret
>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> In general, this sounds good to me.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I don't think we can require The Literary Marketplace (321) of all
>>>>>>>>>> the majors. We only offer one section a year, so obviously that would have
>>>>>>>>>> to change. We could strike that and convert it to elective hours again; then
>>>>>>>>>> students would be free to take 321 if they choose, or they could take some
>>>>>>>>>> other English course (or non-EngDept, if we go that way).
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> We could encourage students through advising to take 311 ro 312 to
>>>>>>>>>> fulfill part of their post-1880 lit requirement.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 2:44 PM, Schloss, David
>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Dear All,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Keith's latest specific outline sounds very good to me. I have no
>>>>>>>>>>> other suggestions now but to allow playwriting, even if offered in another
>>>>>>>>>>> program. For the sake of eclecticism.
>>>>>>>>>>> Independent studies in poetry are very labor-intensive, I might
>>>>>>>>>>> add, and unrecompensed. And yet, I'd go along with this, (partly because I'd
>>>>>>>>>>> be gone before it's in place). I imagine there are enough poets to take a
>>>>>>>>>>> lot of our time, but not enough to fill our courses to the numbers that the
>>>>>>>>>>> business-minded administrators require nowadays.
>>>>>>>>>>> If there were relaxed genre specific requirements, it might make
>>>>>>>>>>> less of an impact on our poetry professors--only two full time ones soon to
>>>>>>>>>>> be left, by my count. So it seems to me that this should be cris and Cathy's
>>>>>>>>>>> call on how to best address our poetry registration train wreck and its
>>>>>>>>>>> solutions... because the burden would be on them.
>>>>>>>>>>> Also, I suppose some cheap solution will be found to sustain the
>>>>>>>>>>> four person Grad rotation after I leave at the end of Fall, 2014. I'd like
>>>>>>>>>>> to teach 651 that one last time, then.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> David
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:58 PM, Tuma, Keith <[log in to unmask]>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Okay, removing tracks. Can't hurt to have a little more
>>>>>>>>>>>> practice in a variety of genres at this level, right? Here's a wild shot--I
>>>>>>>>>>>> know we've been over this just days ago so very sorry to offer it anew, but
>>>>>>>>>>>> with that news about the poetry courses....
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 226 plus 4 workshops, 2 at each level
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> fiction/creative-non-fiction (travel writing could be one
>>>>>>>>>>>> version)/poetry at 300 level
>>>>>>>>>>>> fiction/performance/hybrid writing/screenwriting at 400 level
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> mix and match = 15 workshop writing credits at a minimum
>>>>>>>>>>>> (options for independent study in poetry and other genres; there
>>>>>>>>>>>> would be different frequencies for the courses)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> 298 (3)
>>>>>>>>>>>> the 4 lit courses on the historical model, with the
>>>>>>>>>>>> ethnic/minority post-1800 (total 12)
>>>>>>>>>>>> one genre course (3)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> literary marketplace (3)
>>>>>>>>>>>> capstone (3)
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:35 PM, Luongo, Margaret
>>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Love this idea. Not in love with "tracks"--leave it open and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> let students decide what they want to take? Through advising, we can lead
>>>>>>>>>>>>> those interested in fiction toward the upper level fiction course? Just a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> couple of initial thoughts.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 1:12 PM, cheek, cris
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Hi everybody,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> i'm circulating this brief exchange with KT, with his
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> approval, for your perusal and for your thoughts and onwards suggestions . .
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> this is potentially a surgeon's knife moment and we might need to try to act
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> faster rather than waiting for the horse to die (apologies for the mixed
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> abattoirs).
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cris
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ______________________
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Keith writes:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 28 or 29 in my Lux creative non-fiction; and reminds me that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cw could invent a travel writing course.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 12:58 PM, Tuma, Keith
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm easy to move over into lit courses with the occasional
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dip into creative non-fiction perhaps or poetry in the event that it's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> needed. The point would be to develop a major with two tracks--one
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> specifically in fiction and the other that has a sampling of poetry,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> creative non-fiction, performance/hybrid forms, and screenwriting. One
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> workshop in each.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 12:55 PM, cheek, cris
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the question begging though is how to do so . . Cathy can
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teach poetry. If one of us could teach other things it is probably me. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> could teach performance and electronic literature and hybrid stuff . . . all
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of which i've been wanting to do since i got here but have been unable to do
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because i was always being put into the poetry box.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, we need to address it. Saying it will go away is not
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to work.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Looking forwards,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cris
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Tuma, Keith
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So we have 195 creative writing majors and only 15-20 of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> them interested in poetry? If that's not an argument for a total overhaul of
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the curriculum I don't know what is.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Apr 30, 2013 at 12:37 PM, cheek, cris
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> HI all,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the very slow train wreck that i've been worrying about
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (some say unduly) in respect of poetry at the undergraduate level is taking
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> a new gravity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As of today, with Juniors having been able to enroll,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> there are:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 8 people in 330 (intermediate poetry)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 5 people in 430 (advanced poetry)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If you can nothing else than encourage people to try
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> taking a poetry workshop then please do so. Do also remind students that IF
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they wish to take an advanced poetry workshop they can ONLY do so in the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fall semester. We will only be offering one section in the forthcoming year
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and it looks as if we will be hard-pressed to graduate seniors in poetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> either next year or the year following that . . unless there is a dramatic
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> turn of events.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> cris
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>
|
