I am very glad that someone has been able to add the species to the winter atlas project. West Manchester straddle two priority blocks I first visited last winter and spent two days covering this past week. Despite 4 visits to the location for the recent sightings, I failed to locate any Eurasian Collared-Doves. As I have made a deliberate effort to map the species' distribution in sw. Oklahoma the past 3 years, I'd like to think I have a pretty good search image but clearly they can be hit and miss. In addition to West Manchester, I have investigated about 30 similar communities along the Indiana line north to Fort Recovery ... with no luck. As to the pale bird ... how big is it? ... EUCO is huge compared to a Mounring Dove. Ringed Turtle-Dove is of a slender build the same size or smaller than a Mourning Dove. Pale birds of large size in the past have been dismissed owing to their departure from the "wild type" depicted in field guides for Eurasian Collared Doves. However, these field marks apparently are based on original stock. In Lawton, Oklahoma this summer densities of Eurasian Collared Doves reached the point where 100 birds could be found while running errands about town. I frequently observed birds with plumage variation akin to that seen in Rock Pigeons. Wholly or partial leucism is not uncommon. It is strange to see within the NGS 5th ed. primary color for example depicted as a distinction to be made ... darker in Eurasian Collared-Dove ... when the latter may sport wholly white primaries. I have had the experience of looking at 12 Eurasian Collared-Doves lined up on a wire in my Lawton, OK backyard and no two were alike. Now whether this owes something to genetic baggage from crosses with Ringed Turtle-Dove or perhaps the consequences of natural in-breeding (peripheral colonists unable to find mates not closely related) we can only speculate. But observers should be aware that pale variants of Eurasian Collared-Doves including those matching the description thus far given of the Manchester bird, do exist. I understand that in establishing records in the early going, bird records committees will want to err on the side of caution ... but if we are to map what no doubt is an ongoing spread into the state, we need to appreciate some of the plumage variation exhibited in many Eurasian Collared-Doves. cheers Vic Fazio Shaker Hts, OK Bill Whan <[log in to unmask]> wrote: Brother Gardner and I made a pilgrimage out to West Manchester (DeLorme 64A 2/3) this morning, the scene of what are--as far as anyone knows, or at least tells--the only Eurasian collared-doves remaining from this year's mini-invasion. John Habig and Rick Asamoto had sent photos of three ECDs accompanied by a strange fourth bird, and we wanted to check them out. West Manchester is not large, nor was it very busy at 830 am (everyone must have been at church), so we soon found the four birds at feeders at 200 Walnut St on the west side of Rte 127, accompanied by mourning doves. One, which looked at least to share the genus Streptopelia, was not an ECD; colored like vanilla ice cream dribbled with butterscotch, it was probably an African collared-dove S. roseogrisea, a non-established domesticated form we once knew as the ringed turtle-dove. This one was obviously the result of some determined aviculture. We got good looks at two of the other three, and they showed all the field marks of wild ECDs; one even seemed mildly interested in my amateurish imitation of their call. That there were three ECDs is consistent with John's observation of a juvenile there in September, which confirmed the first breeding of this newcomer to Ohio. We couldn't find any ECDs in Fort Jefferson up the road, and upon returning we didn't refind them at Walnut St, but they must have been around somewhere. Looks like this species, as in so many other places, is here to stay. Bill Whan Columbus ______________________________________________________________________ Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. Our thanks to Miami University for hosting this mailing list. Additional discussions can be found in our forums, at www.ohiobirds.org/forum/. You can join or leave the list, or change your options, at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=OHIO-BIRDS Send questions or comments about the list to: [log in to unmask] ______________________________________________________________________ Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. Our thanks to Miami University for hosting this mailing list. Additional discussions can be found in our forums, at www.ohiobirds.org/forum/. You can join or leave the list, or change your options, at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=OHIO-BIRDS Send questions or comments about the list to: [log in to unmask]