First let me preface that in no way was I addressing the identification of the West Machester birds. I have no seen a photograph nor to this moment seen a physical description of the size of the pale bird. I only brought up the matter of pale variants within the context of this recent sighting. A few more words on Eurasian collared-doves (ECD, Streptopelia decaocto) to add to Paul Gardner's and Vic Fazio's remarks. I'm sure Vic does not advocate identifying the West Manchester piebald bird based on its size alone, or suggest that plumage characteristics aren't important in the identification of ECD. Not at all. The standard characters in field guides will lead you to what we know to be Eurasian Collared-Doves. My point was that automatically attributing these piebalds to something else is confusing the issue, especially when bringing into the discussion the much smaller Ringed Turtle Dove (African if you wish but following commonly available field guides to which one may refer to follow this discussion I will stick to Ringed Turtle-Dove). And what apparently is a lack of attention to size ... as that is a distinguishing mark (given the often ready side-by-side comparison with Mourning Doves) .. or can someone point me to a reference indicating that Ringed/Africans can exceed a Mourning Dove in heft. I had a look at two of my European field guides on Eurasian collared doves, Mullarney et al. (1999) and Jonsson (1992), with English titles 'Birds of Europe.' Both are, I believe, pretty much up to date and very highly regarded, and would not fail to mention important plumage variations in the species they treat. The ECD has been there since the '70s, and Europe's many excellent observers are more familiar than Americans with it by now; as far as we know, Europe is the source of our ECDs. Both guides illustrate and describe a single set of plumage characteristics, just as do Sibley, the National Geographic guide, etc., on this side of the pond. I don't know of any North American field guide that mentions plumage variations for this species such as Vic hints at. I granted the point regarding "original stock" and suggested that some recent genetic mechanism may be at play. I've made numerous trips to Florida, the Ground Zero of this species' invasion, since the '80s, and have never noticed aberrant ECD plumages in thousands of sightings. For 14 years I made twice yearly trips to Sanibel I. where relatives own property. I've spent hrs watching roosts, numbering up to 500 by 1999. And not once have I seen the variation that I see in Oklahoma. If there are documented records of wild S. decaocto exhibiting obvious variations from treatments in reputable field guides, then it's time someone wrote a paper formally describing them for ornithology. I think it would be helpful to point out that of the Oklahoma birds the species was an accidental as recently as 2000. By 2001, there were perhaps a 2-3 dozen in Lawton, OK. By 2004, one could find that many in a neighborhood, and 5-10 in surrounding communities. By 2006, for the first time, the species could be saifd to be common and widespread. I estimate their Lawton numbers tripled in 2007. In other words the variation I speak of has been only seen for 3 years. Ringed turtle-dove and Streptopelia 'risoria,' terms now abandoned by the AOU in favor of African collared-dove S. roseogrisea, denoted a domesticated form in N. America (there are minor differences in opinion on this, with the AOU maintaining there are three small self-supporting colonies, and the ABA that it's not viable anywhere in the wild in N. America), quite tame and easily kept in captivity. Then someone needs to go to Oklahoma City. You can find this form around Lake Overholser for example. Dr. Joe Grzybowkski showed me several there in 2002 and was not surpsied at their presence. These birds were no where near a residence. Furthermore waching these birds made apparent differences in flight style and profile owing to the slender build. A Eurasian Collared-Dove can be picked out from a half mile in silhouette by its unique (in North America at least) courtship flight and approach to landing. It is often released, ad some individuals can closely resemble ECDs because so many phenotypes have been fostered by breeders--see the web address Paul offers. Unfortunately, hybrids--some of them doubtless confusing--between this pet form and the wild ECD exist and have been widely reported in the literature, and are bound to increase as the latter occupies North America. Further complicating matters is the recent report of the possible offspring of the union between Rock Pigeon and Eurasian Collared back-crossing with Eurasian Collared Dove*. Where might such a pairing take place ... why at the fringe of the population expansion in this case in South Dakota. * Martin, R. 2007. Spring Migration: March through May 2007. North American Birds. p. 467-468. As to evidence of hybridization within these pale variants, I made no suggestion that any immediate pairing was involved. And as Bill Whan indicates, a bird exhibiting HYBRID charcaters is no Eurasian Collared-Dove. What I do suggest is that with a history of introgression of genetic material from S. roseogrisea, that in circumstances where Eurasian Collared-Doves find themselves prone to pairing with close relatives (e.g. at the periphery of an expanding population) that it may be possible to see the expression of variation from the original stock .... ... so brow beat me with all those European treatises all you like ... :-) they are rendered moot by the brave New World that S. decaocto finds itself in, in all likelihood arriving here through a genetic bottleneck (relatively few birds within the founding population), upon which natural slection now acts ... cheers Vic Fazio Shaker Hts, Oh ______________________________________________________________________ Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. Our thanks to Miami University for hosting this mailing list. Additional discussions can be found in our forums, at www.ohiobirds.org/forum/. 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