No where did I question the identification of the Eurasian Collared-Doves in West Manchester. I did express an interest in why a simply pale (later termed piebald) bird was assumed to be something else without mention of size/structure ... features typically less prone to variation than plumage. >>> a careful observation of plumage characteristics would serve to separate Ringed Turtle-Dove from Eurasian Collared-Dove (Euco dove). and it did so ... my point was that it may have also led you past the identification of one of the birds presuming it to be something else. >>>As I understand it, Ringed Turtle-Dove is a product of human domestication that does not occur naturally in the wild. As Bill Whan brought out, there is some argument over that point. Wichita Falls TX lies 50 miles or so south of Lawton, OK, and Iowa Park is an outlying community a few miles down the road from Wichita Falls. In Birds of Southwestern Oklahoma and North Central Texas by Dr. J.D Tyler (2005), there are listings for 44 "Ringed Turtle-Doves" on the Wichita Falls CBC in Dec 2002, and 51 in Iowa Park 19 Dec 1998, apparently owing to a local release. There is a 1980 record of one bird for Lawton. Clearly, one hypothesis for a source of abberation in Lawton Eurasian Collared Doves (to which I alluded to earlier) is a recent history of crossing with these birds ... although to date no pure "Ringed Turtle-Doves" have been seen any closer than the sites in TX. And my Oct 2007 forays to Wichita Falls and Iowa Park met only with text-book Eurasian Collared-Doves. Nor in documenting these doves through a 12 county swath of sw. oklahoma these past 3 years have I encountered any domestic dove forms nor querying members of the public brought to light any turtle-doves ... although I have learned that ECDOs are cannon fodder for local BB gun-toting 10-12 yr old boys and that the birds "taste like chicken". >>>Like many domestic animals it is quite variable in appearance as a result of human breeders selecting for traits that they deem desirable. Some of the plumage variation can be seen at this dove-breeders' webpage (http://tinyurl.com/2hw5vs). >>>The Eurasian Collared-Dove is a Old World species that is actively colonizing North America following its release in the Bahamas in the 1970's. Barring mutations, it occurs in a single wild type (at least for our practical purposes in Ohio). Ok ... no argument here. >>>They can be readily separated from Mourning Doves by their larger size, paler plumage, squared tail, and hind-collar. Separation from Ringed Turtle-Dove is less trivial, but two plumage characteristics have been emphasized as key sorting criteria: I grant the key criteria ... never questioned it. I questioned wing color as presented in NGS owing to the extent of leucism I have seen in what otherwise appear to be Eurasian Collared-Doves. Therefore, I wanted to know why was size/structure of the pale bird, presumably seen near the Eurasian Collared-Doves, not mentioned within the context of rejecting it from Eurasian Collared-Dove. If it was the same size as that of the others, then how can it be S. roseogrisea? ... it is that implied conclusion from which I took the opportunity to bring up the variation I see in sw. Oklahoma within what APPEARS to be an exploding population of Eurasian Collared-Doves. >>>Second, the undertail coverts of the Ringed Turtle Dove are pale and are concolorous with the lower belly of the bird and the underside of the tail. The base of the underside of the tail may be dark brown to black, but this black portion is quite restricted, if it is present at all, and does not approach the tip of the undertail coverts. In Eurasian Collared Doves, the undertail coverts are dark gray/brown and contrast with the pale distal portion of the undertail. The underside of the tail has an extensive dark brown/black base that extends almost to or a little beyond the undertail coverts. >>>Furthermore, the dark portion of the tail extends along the outer web of the outer tail feathers well beyond the undertail coverts. A trait evident in the piebald bird - referring to the photo by John Habig. So should we reject that last one as valid? >>>These traits of the underparts are not always easily seen on doves due to their penchant for ground-feeding, but with patience one can usually get the necessary looks. Like Mourning Doves, Eurasian Collared Doves will sit on wires late in the afternoon before going to roost and occasionally will rest there in groups before dispersing of a morning. Of course, the point is taken that vagrants, initially at least, may often be studied at feeders. >>>Even with a relatively brief look, discriminating between dark vs. light undertail coverts, extensive vs. minor dark undertail base, and the presence or absence of dark outer webs on the undertail is readily accomplished. I've assumed that making these distinctions allows the confident separation of the two species even when they're not vocalizing. >>>Vic calls this into question. Given his vastly greater experience with the species, it's hardly surprising that he's seen a greater range of variation than I have, and I'm happy to have this variation called to my attention. I'm just not sure what the import of this variation is, or how it impacts my ability to recognize European Collared-Doves in the field. Only that we need to be open-minded regarding variation. >>The parts of Vic's post that I find most perplexing are > I have had the experience of looking at 12 Eurasian > Collared-Doves lined up on a wire in my Lawton, OK > backyard and no two were alike. >>>My question is "How did you know there was only one species?". Were all 12 vocalizing, or do you have some other sorting criteria? Good question. This particular episode took place while living at the easternmost portion of Lawton in 2004 (which means I need to correct a statement earlier that I have seen this variation for only 3 years ... should read 4 years). They were of a local flock of 16 roosting nearby for months. Most dispersing throughout the neighborhood daily so I rarely caught this many side-by-side. Several kept to the yard. The birds, in close proximity, and with close scrutiny, formed a gradation of shades with some darker than commonly depicted and some paler. Yes, several were calling ... courting seems to pre-occupy much of day for a EUCO April through Oct ... as to the rest, giving they were the subject of this attention and that they were the same size and structure, and the fundamental distinction of the undertail held (albeit with some paler than others) I saw this as evidence they were like species but clearly a hybrid genotype is not excluded nor have I ever rejected it. But as birders we can only focus on the phenotype (what we see) and the underlying question here is what field characters fall within variation and what may be of an immediate consequence of hybridization. This we still need to tease apart. > I frequently observed birds [Eurasian Collared-Doves] > with plumage variation akin to that seen in Rock > Pigeons. >>>Are you implying that Euco doves can't be recognized based on plumage characteristics, or merely that some "good" Euco doves mimic Ringed Turtle-Doves? Sorry for the confusion ... I imply neither .... only that what appear to be perfectly good Eurasian Collared-Doves ... paired with text-book birds, exhibiting similar behaviour/calls, and sporting the under-tail pattern oft cited, will exhibit variation such as white primaries, or have other parts washed out in color ... in a manner seen in Rock Pigeons, or for that matter juncos, etc. Remember i did say I had little to go on with regard to the physical description given of the pale bird in West Manchester. All I read was that it was pale ... Subsequently,I have seen photos suplied by John Habig showing the piebald bird roosting in the same posture as two immediately adjacent typical Eurasian Collared-Doves. The piebald bird is of the size and structure of the Eurasian Collared-Doves nearby which I find curious but hardly conclusive of anything. >>>Isn't it more likely that all this plumage variation is a result of domestic varieties of Ringed Turtle Dove escaping to the wild where they begin to regress away from the named types illustrated on the dove breeders' webpage. What allows you to be sure that such aberrant forms are Euco doves? What's the sorting criteria? I'm not sure .. that is my point.... they exhibit the undertail pattern, appear in the company with textbook ECDO, with many apparently paired. Their flight style and vocalizations are that of ECDO ... and they persist over years ... and if we are talking about recent pairings with S. roseogrisea .. that too serves my point ... that what is evolving as Eurasian Collared-Dove in North America is a departure from the original stock and we should be prepared to examine such departures closely. > Pale birds of > large size in the past have been dismissed owing to > their departure from the "wild type" depicted in field > guides for Eurasian Collared Doves. >>>Isn't this the appropriate null hypothesis? YES. Hence my proviso that records committees will want to err on the side of caution. That out of the way, I thought to focus on the biological implications of the variation. >>>Shouldn't we assume a bird not matching the characteristics of Euco Dove is not a Euco Dove? I don't like to assume anything. >>>This sentence also seems to suggest that Eurasian Collared-Dove exists in multiple varieties as does the Ringed Turtle Dove. Sorry if it does ... I have no evidence that it does ... merely wished to point to plumage variation to be seen by anyone visiting my bank, or the Walmart in Lawton Oklahoma on any given day. That variation appears within birds that to the best of my awareness do not approach Ringed Turtle-Dove as depicted in field guides. I do not know the basis of this variation and only can offer some plausible explanations ... thus I am somewhat surprised that this should warrant the following comment ... >>>Ringed Turtle Doves are variable because they're domesticants maintained by human-controlled selective breeding. I'm not aware that Euco Doves have been domesticated. They're not even considered the wild progenitor of Ringed Turtle Dove. African Collared-Dove (Streptopelia roseogrisea) currently has that distinction. Why do you think there are other "types" of Euco Dove? How do you know they're not Ringed Turtle Doves regressing towards their wild type, or hybrids? Now I'm lost ... what other types ... I am trying to suggest there can be the same the variation that we see with anything ... at the very least, and this variation may have at its root specific genetic mechanisms, including introgression with S. roseogrisea domestic stock. >>> Another way of asking this is "When should I think a dove departing from the "wild type" Euco dove is, in fact, still a Euco Dove?" We don't know that yet. I never said I had the answers here. I am asking questions ... starting with why the assumption that when presented with a pale bird accompanying 3 apparent Eurasian Collared-Doves is automatically something else ... I mean what are the odds that a Ringed Turtle-Dove hooked up with 3 Eurasian Collard-Doves in West Manchester, OH? Again, I am only asking questions ... perhaps the odds are quite good for all I know. Furthermore, I do not mean to imply anything regarding the identification of the piebald bird ... although where one observer will see it as of a domesticated stock or hybrid thereof based upon plumage, another may see a leucistic Eurasian Collared-Dove based upon size/structure ... and neither can know short of a DNA sample. ... wishing to conclude that we keep an open mind ... >>>Lastly, are you suggesting we have can only separate the two species by vocalization? I made no such suggestion nor can I see where I may have implied that. Indeed, I never addressed separation of the two ... As I opened in my earlier post today, current criteria will lead you to the identification of Eurasian Collared-Dove ... and quite possibly right past a few abberrant birds that see themselves as the same species. To the field guide criteria, I will say that courtship flight is another good character. I trust I have left you all thoroughly confused ... but not to worry most of us in Ohio will be shooing ECDOs or whatever they may be off our bird feeders in about 10 years or so. cheers Vic Fazio Shaker Hts, OH ... my apologies in advance if I do not immediate respond further on this thread ... I am winter atlassing in southeast Ohio again this week ... ______________________________________________________________________ Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. Our thanks to Miami University for hosting this mailing list. Additional discussions can be found in our forums, at www.ohiobirds.org/forum/. You can join or leave the list, or change your options, at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=OHIO-BIRDS Send questions or comments about the list to: [log in to unmask]