I received six informative replies to my post about piping plovers in Ohio. I thought it would be best if this information was available to the entire list, rather than just to me, so here are some highlights. I mentioned only two potential nesting sites along the Lake Erie shore--the old Crane Creek SP beach, and Little Cedar Point. There are of course others: the Division of Natural Areas and Preserves has plover management plans in force for Sheldon Marsh SNP and Headlands Dunes SNP. Several of the former prime nesting sites, such as Bay Point and Cedar Point peninsula, have been eradicated by development. As to what potential plover habitat looks like, the Feds have a definition: "Appropriately sized sites must also have areas of at least 50 M (164 ft.) in length where the beach width is more than 7 M (23 ft.), there is protective cover for nests and chicks, and the distance to the treeline (from the normal high water line to where the forest begins) is more than 50 M (164 ft.). Beach width is defined as the distance from the normal high water line to the foredune (a low barrier dune ridge immediately inland from the beach) edge, or to the sand/vegetation boundary in areas where the foredune is absent. The beach width may be narrower than 7 M (23 ft.) if appropriate sand and cobble areas of at least 7 M (23 ft.) exist between the dune and the treeline. Protective cover for nests and chicks consists of small patches of herbaceous vegetation, cobble (stones larger than 1 CM (0.4 inches) diameter), gravel (stones smaller than 1 CM diameter), or debris such as driftwood, wrack, root masses, or dead shrubs... The dynamic ecological processes that create and maintain Piping Plover habitat are also important primary constituent elements. These geologically dynamic lakeside regions are controlled by processes of erosion, accretion, plant succession, and lake-level fluctuations. The integrity of the habitat components depends upon regular sediment transport processes, as well as episodic, high-magnitude storm events. By their nature, Great Lakes shorelines are in a constant state of change; habitat features may disappear, or be created nearby. The critical habitat boundaries reflect these natural processes and the dynamic character of Great Lakes shorelines." Looks like we have a bit of this, but I don't think the distance from high water to forest edge (i.e. those big cottonwoods) at the Crane Creek sp portion of Magee Marsh WA (for example) would qualify, though that long stretch to the east probably would. And I wonder if we have enough suitable shoreline to handle the dynamic aspects in the model. As for systematics, for quite a while two subspecies of piping plovers have been recognized by the AOU--the Great Lakes population being Charadrius melodus circumcinctus, and the seacoast population C. m. melodus. This distinction was said to be visible in some rather fussy differences about the width of the breast-band, so understandably many ornithologists wondered if the populations were really distinct enough. But some brand-new work is out that demonstrates via DNA that there are many other differences; if you are up to the scientific angle, it's at http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2009/1032/pdf/OFR20091032.pdf , and even if you're unfamiliar with concepts and language, you can find some plain English in there about the issue. There's much more accessible information about the species and its conservation, concentrating on the Atlantic Coast, at http://www.goldenrod.org/ar.html . I also learned how the currently sand-starved western Lake Erie beaches (a lot of what looks like sand at a distance is actually crumbled zebra mussel skeletons) quickly are overtaken by cottonwood seedlings (as at Magee). Some think that much lower Lake levels, likely in the future, will be followed by a northward march of phragmites. I hope others who have information to share on this topic will post to the list, where such information is always welcome. Thanks to my helpful and knowledgeable respondents. And thanks for the suggestion of Conneaut Harbor as a piping plover nesting site--I needed a good laugh! Bill Whan Columbus ______________________________________________________________________ Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. Our thanks to Miami University for hosting this mailing list. Additional discussions can be found in our forums, at www.ohiobirds.org/forum/. You can join or leave the list, or change your options, at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=OHIO-BIRDS Send questions or comments about the list to: [log in to unmask]