I feel the need to expand a little on the debate surrounding paper and electronic media. I will limit myself to just a couple of the remarks recently made on the listserv, but will happily entertain other viewpoints. NOTE: you can skip to the bottom for the take home points. CHARTIER: I can go to the UMMZ libary at Ann Arbor, Michigan and get any issue of the Ohio Cardinal, ... This hard copy will always be there (and at many other libraries across the country). Respectfully, Allen, I must ask ...Will it? How many libraries are feeling the economic pinch these days, or seemingly for decades. I first volunteered as an assistant librarian at the age of 13. I scored 250 issues of Science News when the library had to make room for something else. Hundreds of other books went by the wayside. Libraries, including university libraries, have been tossing material for as long as I have been patronizing them. CHARTIER: What happens if the Cornell server crashes? Or the URL changes? Or the data gets hacked? Presumably, the same thing that happens when your bank server crashes, or this listserver. Back-up systems abound and are very inexpensive. Keep in mind that the seasonal data is now made available for bulk download off a separate website ... providing further redundancy. And each and every eBirder may readily download (and yes print!) their own data sets. In operating as a centralized database, eBird need not do so in a physical sense... and as it goes global (e.g. New Zealand eBird), overseas mirror sites are a logical step if not already implemented. These days, URL changes offer simplistic solutions, most transparent to the end user. Assuming eBird is on its own server (s), it need only be registered with WHOIS to maintain and indefinite future matched only by the longevity of networked computing. How is the backing by Cornell any less secure a future than a paper library maintained by the U of M? I hope very much that hard copy survives. I hope the paper data from your 200 correspondents is safe and sound , perhaps in an academic library which appreciates that data set. However, I recognize that whether through some calamity or the vagaries of new priorities of a new management scheme, many a collection has disappeared. There are no guarantees ... and while I have no blind faith in electronic media nor do I of printed matter ... but read on. I love books ... I found comfort in libraries at an early age ... and have built a substantial ornithological library of my own ... but paper, apart from burning, or getting waterlogged, is more ephemeral than recently characterized. WHAN: "History has proved paper records can survive for thousands of years; otherwise we'd have very little history. Electronic ones have yet to prove anything like this. Would anyone like some 8-inch disks?" Paper, as defined by the use of macerated vegetable matter, dates back 1900 years. The oldest book on paper is 1100 years old. So far Bill is still in the ballpark. This "paper" was largely cotton or other rag content. For mass production of books, wood pulp was introduced around 1805 and we have benefited ever since. However, the acid from lignin degrades paper severely, something that was first noticed and reported on by a librarian in the 1930's. Acid free paper was only introduced in the 1950's, although standards for such paper were only established in 1984 ... the year the MacIntosh was released. In other words, whether or not the first years of The Ohio Cardinal were printed on acid free paper of 2% or better alkali content (translates into 100-year survival) is unknown. Indeed, acid free paper was not common at the time, and only has been widely available commercially since the 1990's (with a shift to cheap alkali substitutes like chalk). Therefore some question exists whether paper products prior to the last couple of decades will surpass the 200 year mark often cited for archive quality (e.g. Kodak) CD-Roms. [NOTE: most commercial grades are rated at 15-30 years, while CD-RW and DVDs are half that... ]. Even so, acid free publications are now expected to last 200 years, archive quality 500, and specially treated museum grades (which are cotton or other rag not of wood pulp) have been rated at 1000+ years. Since 1995, the Library of Congress has been retro treating its collection at a cost of millions of dollars. Multiple copies of Ohio Birds and Natural History are on file there, but I can't speak for The Ohio Cardinal or other Ohio print publications. The take home points are : The life expectancy of pre 1980's wood pulp paper products is largely unknown. My copy of Brayton and Wheaton's 1882 treatise on the Mammals and Birds of Ohio is in excellent condition and I expect it to far outlast myself. My 32 year-old copies of The Ohio Cardinal are faded but in good shape. My 100 year old copies of The Auk and Condor, which I maintain in a shaded, low humidity environment, definitely show their age and many, some as recent as 1940, are too brittle to handle. Even so, paper still has practical value and an edge over everyday electronic media in terms of longevity. Electronic media forms will come and go ... yet their life expectancy is somewhat moot, given that digital information exists as ioiiooio data which now survives within a global network. The original ARPANET, the forerunner of the Internet, was decommisioned in 1990, yet data from 40 years ago still survives today. Indeed, the entire concept behind the ARPANET was to make data indestructible in a nuclear world. Is one better than the other? I find that a moot question as the methods serve as back up for each other. And I hope the dichotomy between the two can be viewed as serving dual purposes rather than in opposition. cheers Vic Fazio Shaker Heights, OH PS> much of the above factual info can be verified by googling the appropriate topic ... or you could visit your local library. ______________________________________________________________________ Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. Our thanks to Miami University for hosting this mailing list. Additional discussions can be found in our forums, at www.ohiobirds.org/forum/. You can join or leave the list, or change your options, at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=OHIO-BIRDS Send questions or comments about the list to: [log in to unmask]