I too photographed this bird. It was not much larger than the ring billed gulls it was swimming with, for whatever that is worth. Plus it did not look like a snow goose in the field. On another note, the gull identified as the black tailed gull on the roof of one of the blue industrial buildings (Sunday afternoon - aka goose day) had it's ID "changed" to a lesser black backed gull after someone looked at a digiscoped photo ~ an hour after the original sighting. Have not seen any mention of less black backed. Renee Tressler On Mon, Dec 5, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Lehman, Jay <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > Because it was announced to the list serve on Sunday that I was the one to > identify the small white goose at Ashtabula as a Ross' Goose, I decided to > respond to this thread. The small white goose that I ID'd as Ross's Goose > had a relatively small conical bill, with a straight vertical posterior > edge (toward the eye) and bluish gray base of the bill and a steep forehead > and rounded crown and head shape. There was some grin patch, but it did > not include the large bulge in the grin patch as in Snow Goose nor was the > amount of grin extensive. I know that discussions have made the point > that Ross's have no grin mark, but I have read discussions that indicate > Ross's often do have some grin line. That's also been my experience > studying the large flocks of Ross's Geese in California in the fall/winter. > To ID the bird I concentrated on the head shape and bill shape. I studied > the bird though a telescope at perhaps 50 yards, perhaps more. Jerry > Talkington showed me a close-up photo that he took on Sunday while I was at > Lake Shore Park. His close up photo taken at a perpendicular angle to the > bird showed a steeply rising forehead and the bill shape that I describe > above in this message. > > For whatever it is worth, when I arrived on the scene, I was told the > small white goose was a Snow Goose. The bird I ID'd did not have a Snow > Goose bill, and definitely did not have the concave curvature in the > feathers at the posterior edge toward the eye. The bill and head shape was > wrong for Snow Goose and did not show a sloping profile as in Snow Goose. > I'm not sure what to make of Matt's photos. The head and bill shape on > the bird in those photos is not what I recall in Jerry T's close-up photos. > Perhaps it is the angle or what the bird was doing when Matt's photos were > snapped? > > > Bill Whan asked, "Any thoughts from others?" > > I'm dubious of the emphasis on size, and particularly using average length > measurements, which are frequently if not always taken with the bird laid > out as if or really dead from the end of the bill to the tip of the tail. > That requires a good imagination to visualize a live small white goose > laid out next to a live Mallard laid out for a size comparison. In > addition, a Mallard and a Ross's or Snow Goose do not have the same shape > and body bulk and appear to have different neck lengths. Therefore, in > real life not laid out for length measurement, the length measurement > quoted in field guides and references has limited use in my opinion. > > In addition, an average length measurement as a means of comparison needs > to also include the variability in that average measurement. An apparent > difference in average length indicated by two average lengths, for Mallard > and Ross's Goose, for example, may not be meaningful when the variation in > both numbers is taken into consideration. When the variation in the > average lengths is included, the results may indicate significant overlap > in the average values such that a real difference cannot be detected in the > field with live birds not laid out for exact measurement. (I couldn't > resist making this point. I am a trained, advanced degreed Analytical > Chemist, aka measurement scientist, and work with experimental results and > variability in the data in my full time job. Sorry if this steps on a few > toes!) > > I'm glad Vic Fazio chimed in on this discussion thread! > Jay > > Jay G. Lehman > Cincinnati, OH > [log in to unmask] > > > > ______________________________________________________________________ > > Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. > Our thanks to Miami University for hosting this mailing list. > Additional discussions can be found in our forums, at > www.ohiobirds.org/forum/. > > You can join or leave the list, or change your options, at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=OHIO-BIRDS > Send questions or comments about the list to: [log in to unmask] > ______________________________________________________________________ Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. Our thanks to Miami University for hosting this mailing list. Additional discussions can be found in our forums, at www.ohiobirds.org/forum/. 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