Hi, Andy rehashes excellent points which have been discussed on multiple occasions in the forum over the years. We humans have a very limited temporal perspective as we think in decades rather than centuries. While it is hard to believe, we really don't have enough data to really understand the fluctuations in population and range of many species. Certainly when there is a strong assignable cause, like the pesticide DDT, we can see the changes during the course of our lifetimes, but otherwise it can be very difficult to separate normal random variation from variation due to some special cause that is outside the natural system. It is interesting to look at historic literature and speculate. For instance in his original Birds of the Cleveland Region, A.B. Williams, called Piliated Woodpecker rare. Today that species is abundant in the region. What changed in the course of 70 years? While there has been a great deal of re forestation there has also been fragmentation with sub urban sprawl There were also thousands of acres which were never cut in the first place. Is the current abundance of Piliateds due to habitat or habituation? Or perhaps because we no longer are constantly gunning for them? Keep in mind how many birds were hunted nearly to the brink in the 19th and early 20th century. Crows in particular were considered pests and often shot on sight by farmers. This was often done with a rifle at long range and special rounds were developed for "varmint" hunting. It is fortunate for the birds, and birders, that we humans no longer constantly gun for them, and there certainly are species which are highly dependent upon specific habitats. However, taking the long term perspective the tired argument of birders loving the birds too much, having any overall effect on a population is simply nonsense. Be it at Metzger Marsh, or in University Heights, unless we start taking very active measures, like cutting forage cover, or cutting down the nest tree, or gunning for these birds, our presence as birders and birdwatchers makes no difference whatsoever. Haans Petruschke Kirtland ______________________________________________________________________ Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. Our thanks to Miami University for hosting this mailing list. Additional discussions can be found in our forums, at www.ohiobirds.org/forum/. You can join or leave the list, or change your options, at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=OHIO-BIRDS Send questions or comments about the list to: [log in to unmask]