Some discussion about judging shades of gray prompted me to overlay a Kodak grayscale chart onto John's comparison shot with the 3rd year herring gull. You can see this here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/haans42/ Then use the chart on pp 26 of Howell and Dunn. If the Herring gull looks lighter than the values on the H&D chart shift everything the same amount lighter. If darker shift everything in that direction. To me the result matches what I thought I saw in the field Saturday. Hope everyone is having a great holiday. Briskett on BBQ and time to kill while it cooks Haans ______________________________________________________________________ Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. Our thanks to Miami University for hosting this mailing list. Additional discussions can be found in our forums, at www.ohiobirds.org/forum/. You can join or leave the list, or change your options, at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=OHIO-BIRDS Send questions or comments about the list to: [log in to unmask]