Jen almost has me convinced that bird #2 is a Glossy. I'd love to have a better look at exactly what and where that loral line is, but otherwise, it does seem good for Glossy. Here is some pertinent info (taken from Pyle, Part II) on Glossy vs. White-faced Ibis, which are treated there together in one account (pardon any typos I may have missed): "Some HYs in June-Oct may not be identifiable until development of the pale stripes in the loral skin o fHY Glossy Ibis (in Jul-Oct) or the reddish eye in HY White-faced Ibis (in Sep-Dec). See Figure 267, Arterburn & Grzybowski (2003), Fall (1995), Howell & de Montes (1989), Kaufman 1990a, Patten & Lasley (2000), and Pratt (1976, 1980) for more information." Here's what it says about Juv, HY/SY and SY/TY birds (p372): "Juv (B1; Jun-Aug) has head and neck pale brown, without streaks and often with scattered white feathers or patches in head and throat, and bill pinkish with dusky bands (Fig. 267A,C); Juv male=female. The following month ranges pertain to N.Am populations. HY/SY (1st cycle, F1/A1; Sep-Aug): Bill pinkish, becoming grayish by Oct-Dec; head and neck grayish brown with whitish streaks, often mixed with worn juv brown feathers through Jan; rects rounded and without glossy sheen (Fig. 268A); upperparts including les and med covs uniformly greenish olive with dull sheen (Fig. 269A), the s covs often with one to many dull maroon-centered or semi-glossy feathers in Dec-Aug (Fig. 269B); med covs with little or no purplish sheen (Fig. 269A); breast with no to a few dull maroon-centered feathers in Feb-Aug; loral skin dull slate within indistinct pale stripes in Glossy Ibis (Fig. 267A), or dusky to dull reddish in White-faced Ibis (Fig. 267C); iris brownish in White-faced Ibis, becoming reddish brown by Sep-Dec. SY/TY (2nd cycle, B2-A2; Sep-Aug): Bill grayish; head and neck brown with white streaks, variably mixed (5-95%) with maroon alternate feathers in Feb-Aug; rects truncated and with substantial glossy purplish sheen (Fig. 268B); upperparts greenish with bluish gloss, the les covs mixed with some dull maroon-centered feathers in Sep-Feb (Fig. 269B-C) or some to many bright maroon feathers in Feb -Aug (Fig. 268C-D); med covs with moderate purplish sheen (Fig. 269C); breast with 50-95% maroon feathering in Mar-Aug; loral skin dark grayish with distinct pale lines in Glossy Ibis (cf. Fig 267B), or dull reddish in White-faced Ibis (cf. 267D); iris reddish in White-faced Ibis. Note: Intermediates with ASY/ATY, e.g. individuals with full maroon bodies but les covs indicating SY/TY (Fig. 269B-C) or intermediate (Fig. 269D-E), are perhaps best aged T-4Y (see pp. 41-42) but more study is needed." Instead of photocopying them, I'll just summarize the figures with text: Fig 267 has Juv-HY and ASY (A and B) of Glossy and (C and D) White-faced Ibis. Fig 268 shows HY/SY (A) and AHY/ASY (B) outer rectrix tips. Fig 269 shows sketches of the extent of maroon on the les and med covs on folded wing: A) Juv; HY, Aug-Dec; B) Form./B2; SY, Jan-Dec [few flecks on les covs]; C) B2/A2; Sy/Ty, Sep-Aug [dense flecks on les covs]; D) A2/DB; TY, Feb-Aug; ASY/ATY Sep-Feb [dense on les covs; flecks on med covs]; etc. -Paul ______________________________________________________________________ Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. Our thanks to Miami University for hosting this mailing list. Additional discussions can be found in our forums, at www.ohiobirds.org/forum/. You can join or leave the list, or change your options, at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/scripts/wa.exe?LIST=OHIO-BIRDS Send questions or comments about the list to: [log in to unmask]