I will not be addressing all the issues raised in the post below, rather focusing on the bird depicted in the linked image below. http://ruhikant.smugmug.com/Birds/Spring-2013/28947899_bqnHq9#!i=2487927209&k=XHTbRDx&lb=1&s=O Photos of this bird were first made available to the public by Leslie Houser 29 April through this eBird checklist https://ebird.org/admin/reviewSub.htm?subID=S13931328 . First to answer Ned's question about a photo of a bird known to be a hybrid based on DNA or a banded as a chick? I do not have that information. How often do we have that kind of imagery of any putative hybrid? Certainly none exists of the WEKI/COKI/Scissor-tailed Flycatcher from last fall near Sandusky ... yet I don't think anyone disputes that it was a hybrid. And so I must ask why is that necessary? When an American Black Duck sports a green sheen in the head, a character not associated with that species but one found in other species including Mallard, are we more comfortable identifying the bird as a hybrid, or do we keep calling it an American Black Duck. When we identify Brewster's and Lawrence's Warblers, we do not do so as a consequence of some genetic assay, but because the observed phenotype exhibits a mix of characters we associate with two different species. And so, we tend to use the caveat "apparent hybrid" only in some pairings so familiar to us as these, we drop the phrase from usage. Let us take a critical look at the bird in question. What are definitive characters for White-faced Ibis. I think we can agree that in breeding plumage, a white border of FEATHERING around the bare skin of the face is good for White-faced Ibis, and that is not an expected character of Glossy Ibis. This bird exhibits the white feathering so not a Glossy Ibis (contrary to one eBird report). In a breeding adult Glossy, we do see a chalky blue edging of the olive facial skin sharply demarcated and reaching the eye but not wrapping around it. In a White-faced Ibis, of similar condition as exhibits the white feathering, the facial skin is wholly reddish in color perhaps fading slightly to pink at the edges in 'dull' birds. But the bird in question clearly exhibits an olive patch of facial skin suffused with plum. We also see a sharpy mark border of pale facial color, not blue but something intermediate ... mauve perhaps. Regardless of the color, regardless of any subjective arguments over 'intermediate' color including that of the eye, the presence of Glossy Ibis facial PATTERN should be enough to eliminate White-faced Ibis from consideration. I will also note that both written descriptions and of what we see in the image of the legs can be said the "knees" are with much of the tarsi olive ... not consistent with White-faced Ibis. On the matter of frequency, I should hope Ohio birders could become more familiar with the ABA publication "North American Birds" for information outside of the immediate region. Hybridization has been underway for more than a decade at Salt Plains N.W.R.* There is a 2003 article cited below. The research did not end there. In the past few seasons about 80 blood samples for DNA have been obtained at Salt Plains and similar work on the Gulf Coast (where these intermediate birds have been seen) are slated in the near future. * [I cannot speak directly to the question of frequency but will pass along that the Refuge biologist at Salt plains has reported 50 hybrids in a single day. If you still wish to treat these as representatives of mere variation, then you must answer the question why so much variation at this breeding site where Glossy Ibis are seen annually within the colony, but this level of variation is infrequent to non existent elsewhere.] Oklahoma is a hotbed for variation. Here is a photo essay based on a SINGLE day's photo shoot among a flock of 400 ibis in southwest Oklahoma (a wetland just an hr from Lawton). http://www.pbase.com/joe_grzybowski/ibis_heads You will find Glossies, White-faced Ibis (which do exhibit substantial variation), and presumed hybrids. Again, we presume them to be hybrids, in the same vein as Blue-winged X Golden-winged hybrids, because these individuals exhibit a mix of characters which should be exclusive to the parentals. It was using this experience, I addressed the particularly difficult situation presented by 7 dark ibis at Ottawa N.W.R. last May. Several hundred people observed these birds and about 80 reported them to eBird. I received every conceivable combination of Glossy and White-faced Ibis including a report of one as a hybrid (from a very experienced observer). I spent months last fall gathering what I could and going over photos, before concluding there were 3 Glossy Ibis and 4 White-faced Ibis. One aberrant WFIB, with excessive white feathering, fell within the known variation (as supported by two fellow members of the Oklahoma Bird Records Committee) and exhibited no Glossy characters. It is with this same experience of 8 years on the OKBRC, and with the further support of Dr. Joe Grzybowski and Jim Arteburn (authors of that 2003 paper), that I published Ohio's first documented hybrid dark ibis in North American Birds. But by all means judge the photo by Tom Bartlett for yourselves. You will find it in full color on page 711 of Vol 65. No.4. The Nesting Season. 2011. Should the OH BRC come to a different conclusion on any of these birds, the entries in eBird will be adjusted accordingly as it is the stipulated policy of eBird to do so, contrary to what you may have read elsewhere. However, as my name appears on the seasonal review I write for North American Birds, I solely report my own conclusions in that space, and I stand by all of the above identifications. PLEASE direct all communications to [log in to unmask] I do not monitor the oh-birds email address. I do read postings to the listserv through the ABA website http://birding.aba.org/maillist/OH cheers Vic Fazio 18722 Newell Rd., Shaker Hts, OH 44122 401, SW F Ave., Rm 509, Lawton, OK 73501 (current thru Aug) Regional Editor, North American Bird, OH-WV 2004-2013 State eBird Reviewer, OH 2005-2013; OK 2008-2013 Oklahoma Bird Records Committee, 2006-2013 ________________________________ From: Ned Keller <[log in to unmask]> To: [log in to unmask] Sent: Wed, May 1, 2013 4:49:28 PM Subject: [Ohio-birds] Fernald (Cincinnati) Ibis The two Ibis from Fernald Preserve near Cincinnati were seen until yesterday evening, but were not seen today (or at least, the only report was negative). There has been continuing discussion about their identity; but before I get to that, I have a question: Does anyone have a link to an image of ANY hybrid that is actually known to be such? I don't mean just a bird that looks intermediate, but a bird from a hybrid nest that was banded as a chick, an adult identified by DNA, or any other source of actual positive knowledge of its identity. Ruhikant Meetei has posted a link to a stunning image of one bird: http://ruhikant.smugmug.com/Birds/Spring-2013/28947899_bqnHq9#!i=2487927209&k=XHTbRDx&lb=1&s=O And here's a post from the Cincinnatibirds message board from Jack Stenger, reposted by permission: [quote begins] There has been discussion in other forums about the identification of the Fernald ibis. At least one knowledgeable birder thinks that the photos clearly show a Glossy x White-faced hybrid based off the dark eye and purplish facial skin. This is an interesting possibility, but I think it’s hasty to conclusively identify this ibis as a hybrid. (For the record, I have not seen this bird in the wild.) The golden rule in documenting rare birds is that extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Although we birders tend to overlook it, hybrids are way more extraordinary than non-hybrids. Our knowledge of dark ibis hybridization seems hardly more than anecdotal – interbreeding has only been documented in one location in Wyoming (Faulkner 2005), assumed in Oklahoma (Arterburn and Grzybowski 2003), and "apparent hybrids" are reported widely in the east and west. Even the publications documenting hybrids frequently use the word “apparent”. Interestingly, in the area where their ranges overlap, the Gulf Coast, there are no reports of hybridization (Ryder 1967, Duncan and Johnson 1977, Ryder and Manry 1994). If anybody knows of any other mixed-species breeding attempts I’d be eager to hear them. For this to be a hybrid, it means that the following probably occurred: an individual Glossy Ibis would wander far out of range where there were no other Glossy Ibis to breed with, mate with a White-faced Ibis, successfully raise an offspring, which then shows up well out of range itself. Could it happen? Sure. Did it happen? That would take extraordinary documentation. Maybe this bird is a hybrid. But assuming that’s the case because of soft part coloration is a large leap. A bird with duller eyes and skin than expected (from a photo) does not seem enough to prove a hybrid, especially considering that young ibises have duller eye/bare part coloration that deepen in color as they age. Could this bird just be a “late bloomer” and not yet in breeding condition? If a second year junco retained it’s hatch year eye color, would we assume it is a hybrid? No, we would use the term “aberrent”. Why is this same evidence conclusive proof of hybridization in an ibis? All references highlight how little we know about the phenotypic variability, gene flow, and hybridization of Plegadis ibis. If there is one thing we shouldn’t be, it’s sure. I encourage observers to keep an open mind about the bird and document it as well as possible. A "hybrid" identification should not be a default identification for unusual individuals. Anyway, I hope more people get to see these awesome birds. References: Arterburn, J. W. and J. A. Grzybowski. 2003. Hybridization between Glossy and White-faced Ibises. North American Birds 57:136-139. Faulkner, D. 2005. Hybridization and nesting of Glossy Ibis(Plegadisfalcinellus)in Wyoming. North American Birds 59:382-384. Ryder, R.A. 1967. Distribution, migration and mortality of the White-faced Ibis (Plegadis chihi) in North America. Bird Banding 38: 257-277. Ryder, R.A., and D.E. Manry. 1994. Whitefaced Ibis (Plegadis chihi). In The Birds of North America, No. 130. (A. Poole and F. Gill, Eds.). Philadelphia: The Academy of Natural Sciences; Washington, D.C.: The American Ornithologists’ Union. [quote ends] -- Ned Keller ______________________________________________________________________ Ohio-birds mailing list, a service of the Ohio Ornithological Society. 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