Grammar Question
"If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research, would it?" (attributed to Albert Einstein)
In my paraphrastic grammar of English, the solution would be given by restating the various propositions of Einstein's question as a series of six separate assertions with one question. Each of the seven paraphrastic sentences share some parts that function differently in context.
1. We were doing something (a).
2. This thing (a) was something (b).
3. We may know this thing (b) in some case (c).
4. This thing (b) may be called research.
5. This thing (b) may not be called research.
6. This case (c) would be (4) or (5).
7. Would this thing (a) be called research in this case (6)?
The first thing (a) is the direct object of the progressive subjunctive "were doing" in (1), the subject of the conditional "was" in (2) and of the passive interrogative "be called" in (6). The second thing (b) is the predicate complement of the conditional "was" in (2), the direct object of the conditional "knew" in (3), and the subject of the interrogative "would be called research" in (7). The case (c) is noun head of a conditional limiting adverb prepositional phrase in (3) and (7) and the noun subject of the tag question in (6).
Here I have tried to be as explicit as I could manage. Some ideas for such explanations of sentences in English are outlined on my website (bdespain.org) under "Linguistics" in my work on a paraphrastic grammar. There is also work on a "dendrology" (tree-diagraming) of English. There my trees are compared to Reed-Kellogg diagrams.
Bruce D. Despain
On Fri, 1 Dec 2023 01:16:09 -0600, "Albert E. Krahn" <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
The "would it" part is a result of incorrect punctuation.
It should be a separate question sentence in response
to the other part.
Albert E. Krahn
[log in to unmask]
At 11:00 PM 11/30/2023, you wrote:
>There are 7 messages totaling 1305 lines in this issue.
>
>Topics of the day:
>
> 1. grammar question (4)
> 2. grammar question/clause within noun clause (2)
> 3. [External Email] Re: grammar question
>
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>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 16:54:12 +0000
>From: Scott Woods
>Subject: grammar question
>
>Dear List,
>What is going on in the bold section of the
>adverb clause below? Specifically, how are the
>two clauses related to each other?Â
>Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence?
>If we knew what it was we were doing, it would
>not be called research, would it?  (attributed to Albert Einstein)
>Thanks,
>Scott Woods
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:44:08 -0500
>From: Gay Claiborne
>Subject: Re: grammar question
>
>Not an adverb clause; rather, itâs a noun
>clause functioning as direct object of the verb âknew.â
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54â¯AM, Scott Woods
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Dear List,
> >
> > What is going on in the bold section of the
> adverb clause below? Specifically, how are the
> two clauses related to each other?
> >
> > Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence?
> >
> > If we knew what it was we were doing, it
> would not be called research, would it? (attributed to Albert Einstein)
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Scott Woods
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
> visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 19:16:00 +0100
>From: Sergio Pizziconi
>Subject: Re: grammar question
>
>I agree with the DirObj reading of the subordinate.
>Then, since the first part could be rewritten as "if we knew what we were
>doing was...", it could be extraposition with "it" as dummy subject.
>Finally, "would it? " has been variously labeled, but I use "question tag"
>as it reverses the polarity of the statement seeking for agreement.
>Sergio
>
>
>Il gio 30 nov 2023, 18:44 Gay Claiborne ha
>scritto:
>
> > Not an adverb clause; rather, itâs a noun clause functioning as direct
> > object of the verb âknew.â
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54â¯AM, Scott Woods <
> > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Dear List,
> >
> > What is going on in the bold section of the adverb clause below?
> > Specifically, how are the two clauses related to each other?
> >
> > Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence?
> >
> > *If we knew what it was we were doing*, it would not be called research,
> > would it? (attributed to Albert Einstein)
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Scott Woods
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> > leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> > leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 18:49:46 +0000
>From: "Turner, Tildon L."
>Subject: Re: grammar question
>
>Itâs a noun clause.
>
>TIl
>
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>________________________________
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
>Grammar on behalf of
>Gay Claiborne
>Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2023 12:44:08 PM
>To: [log in to unmask]
>Subject: Re: grammar question
>
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>important
>Not an adverb clause; rather, itâs a noun
>clause functioning as direct object of the verb âknew.â
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54â¯AM, Scott Woods
><[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>Dear List,
>
>What is going on in the bold section of the
>adverb clause below? Specifically, how are the
>two clauses related to each other?
>
>Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence?
>
>If we knew what it was we were doing, it would
>not be called research, would it? (attributed to Albert Einstein)
>
>Thanks,
>
>Scott Woods
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>visit the list's web interface at:
>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>visit the list's web interface at:
>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 19:21:37 +0000
>From: Scott Woods
>Subject: Re: grammar question/clause within noun clause
>
> Thanks.
>I'm really interested in the relationship
>between "what it was" and "what we were doing."
>These function together as a noun clause. But we
>could also say "if we knew what we were doing"
>or "if we knew what it was." There are two
>clauses within the noun clause. What is the structure?Â
>Scott
> On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 11:16:21
> AM MST, Sergio Pizziconi wrote:
>
> I agree with the DirObj reading of the
> subordinate.Then, since the first part could be
> rewritten as "if we knew what we were doing
> was...", it could be extraposition with "it" as
> dummy subject. Finally, "would it? " has been
> variously labeled, but I use "question tag" as
> it reverses the polarity of the statement seeking for agreement. SergioÂ
>
>Il gio 30 nov 2023, 18:44 Gay Claiborne
> ha scritto:
>
>Not an adverb clause; rather, itâs a noun
>clause functioning as direct object of the verb âknew.â
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54â¯AM, Scott Woods
><[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
>Dear List,
>What is going on in the bold section of the
>adverb clause below? Specifically, how are the
>two clauses related to each other?Â
>Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence?
>If we knew what it was we were doing, it would
>not be called research, would it?  (attributed to Albert Einstein)
>Thanks,
>Scott Woods
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>visit the list's web interface at:
>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland
>select "Join or leave the list"
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>visit the list's web interface at:
>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland
>select "Join or leave the list"
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>visit the list's web interface at:
>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland
>select "Join or leave the list"
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>
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>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 14:41:14 -0500
>From: "C. Beth Burch"
>Subject: Re: [External Email] Re: grammar question
>
>Hi All,
>
>I might also add that *it* and *what we were doing* are in apposition
>within a cleft sentence (or a cleft clause). The two parts of the cleft are
>joined by the linking verb *was*.
>
>All the bolded text is the direct object of the verb *knew,* making the
>overall pattern of the sentence S_V_O.
>
>And of course the subordinator *If *merely introduces the clause and makes
>the entire utterance conditional.
>
>Regards,
>Beth Burch
>
>
>
>***********************************************
>Dr. C. Beth Burch | Chair and Professor
>Judaic Studies Department | Binghamton University, SUNY
>LT 1308 | [log in to unmask]
>https://www.binghamton.edu/judaic-studies/profile.html?
>
>
>âIn the dark times
>
> will there also be singing?
>
> Yes, there will also be singing.
>
> About the dark times.â
>
> Berthold Brecht
>
>
>On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 2:15â¯PM Sergio Pizziconi
>wrote:
>
> > I agree with the DirObj reading of the subordinate.
> > Then, since the first part could be rewritten as "if we knew what we were
> > doing was...", it could be extraposition with "it" as dummy subject.
> > Finally, "would it? " has been variously labeled, but I use "question tag"
> > as it reverses the polarity of the statement seeking for agreement.
> > Sergio
> >
> >
> > Il gio 30 nov 2023, 18:44 Gay Claiborne ha
> > scritto:
> >
> >> Not an adverb clause; rather, itâs a noun clause functioning as direct
> >> object of the verb âknew.â
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54â¯AM, Scott Woods <
> >> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >> Dear List,
> >>
> >> What is going on in the bold section of the adverb clause below?
> >> Specifically, how are the two clauses related to each other?
> >>
> >> Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence?
> >>
> >> *If we knew what it was we were doing*, it would not be called research,
> >> would it? (attributed to Albert Einstein)
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Scott Woods
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> >> "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> >> "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> > leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
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>
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>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:34:39 -0800
>From: Karl Hagen
>Subject: Re: grammar question/clause within noun clause
>
>Labeling these noun clauses, etc. is of course, the traditional
>terminology, but those labels are potentially misleading. These are
>fused relatives (in the terminology of CGEL), and this means they are
>grammatically speaking noun _phrases_ (which contain clauses). I'm not
>going to defend that analysis here (see CGEL Chapter 12 for the
>details), but it appears to me a more adequate description than the
>traditional one.
>
>Recognizing "what it was" as a NP makes the relationship to "we were
>doing" fairly straightforward. The latter is an ordinary relative clause
>and functions as a modifier to the fused relative/NP (compare "what it
>was [that] we were doing" with "the activity [that] we were doing").
>
>On 11/30/2023 11:21 AM, Scott Woods wrote:
> > Thanks.
> >
> > I'm really interested in the relationship between "what it was" and
> > "what we were doing." These function together as a noun clause. But we
> > could also say "if we knew what we were doing" or "if we knew what it
> > was." There are two clauses within the noun clause. What is the
> > structure?
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 11:16:21 AM MST, Sergio Pizziconi
> > wrote:
> >
> >
> > I agree with the DirObj reading of the subordinate.
> > Then, since the first part could be rewritten as "if we knew what we
> > were doing was...", it could be extraposition with "it" as dummy subject.
> > Finally, "would it? " has been variously labeled, but I use "question
> > tag" as it reverses the polarity of the statement seeking for agreement.
> > Sergio
> >
> >
> > Il gio 30 nov 2023, 18:44 Gay Claiborne
> > ha scritto:
> >
> > Not an adverb clause; rather, itâs a noun clause functioning as
> > direct object of the verb âknew.â
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54â¯AM, Scott Woods
> >> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >> Dear List,
> >> /
> >> /
> >> What is going on in the bold section of the adverb clause below?
> >> Specifically, how are the two clauses related to each other?
> >>
> >> Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence?
> >>
> >> /If we knew *what it was we were doing*/, it would not be called
> >> research, would it? (attributed to Albert Einstein)
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Scott Woods
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> >> select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> > select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> > "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> > "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
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>------------------------------
>
>End of ATEG Digest - 26 Oct 2023 to 30 Nov 2023 (#2023-6)
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