The "would it" part is a result of incorrect punctuation. It should be a separate question sentence in response to the other part. Albert E. Krahn [log in to unmask] At 11:00 PM 11/30/2023, you wrote: >There are 7 messages totaling 1305 lines in this issue. > >Topics of the day: > > 1. grammar question (4) > 2. grammar question/clause within noun clause (2) > 3. [External Email] Re: grammar question > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 16:54:12 +0000 >From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: grammar question > >Dear List, >What is going on in the bold section of the >adverb clause below? Specifically, how are the >two clauses related to each other? >Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence? >If we knew what it was we were doing, it would >not be called research, would it?  (attributed to Albert Einstein) >Thanks, >Scott Woods > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:44:08 -0500 >From: Gay Claiborne <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Re: grammar question > >Not an adverb clause; rather, it’s a noun >clause functioning as direct object of the verb “knew.†> >Sent from my iPhone > > > On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Scott Woods > <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > >  > > Dear List, > > > > What is going on in the bold section of the > adverb clause below? Specifically, how are the > two clauses related to each other? > > > > Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence? > > > > If we knew what it was we were doing, it > would not be called research, would it? (attributed to Albert Einstein) > > > > Thanks, > > > > Scott Woods > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please > visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html > and select "Join or leave the list" > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 19:16:00 +0100 >From: Sergio Pizziconi <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Re: grammar question > >I agree with the DirObj reading of the subordinate. >Then, since the first part could be rewritten as "if we knew what we were >doing was...", it could be extraposition with "it" as dummy subject. >Finally, "would it? " has been variously labeled, but I use "question tag" >as it reverses the polarity of the statement seeking for agreement. >Sergio > > >Il gio 30 nov 2023, 18:44 Gay Claiborne <[log in to unmask]> ha >scritto: > > > Not an adverb clause; rather, it’s a noun clause functioning as direct > > object of the verb “knew.†> > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Scott Woods < > > [log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > >  > > Dear List, > > > > What is going on in the bold section of the adverb clause below? > > Specifically, how are the two clauses related to each other? > > > > Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence? > > > > *If we knew what it was we were doing*, it would not be called research, > > would it? (attributed to Albert Einstein) > > > > Thanks, > > > > Scott Woods > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > > leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > > leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 18:49:46 +0000 >From: "Turner, Tildon L." <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Re: grammar question > >It’s a noun clause. > >TIl > >Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef> >________________________________ >From: Assembly for the Teaching of English >Grammar <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of >Gay Claiborne <[log in to unmask]> >Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2023 12:44:08 PM >To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Re: grammar question > >Caution: This is an external email. Safety and >security should be considered when clicking links or opening attachments. >You don't often get email from >[log in to unmask] Learn why this is >important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification> >Not an adverb clause; rather, it’s a noun >clause functioning as direct object of the verb “knew.†> >Sent from my iPhone > >On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Scott Woods ><[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > >Dear List, > >What is going on in the bold section of the >adverb clause below? Specifically, how are the >two clauses related to each other? > >Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence? > >If we knew what it was we were doing, it would >not be called research, would it? (attributed to Albert Einstein) > >Thanks, > >Scott Woods > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please >visit the list's web interface at: >http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please >visit the list's web interface at: >http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 19:21:37 +0000 >From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Re: grammar question/clause within noun clause > > Thanks. >I'm really interested in the relationship >between "what it was" and "what we were doing." >These function together as a noun clause. But we >could also say "if we knew what we were doing" >or "if we knew what it was." There are two >clauses within the noun clause. What is the structure? >Scott > On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 11:16:21 > AM MST, Sergio Pizziconi <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > I agree with the DirObj reading of the > subordinate.Then, since the first part could be > rewritten as "if we knew what we were doing > was...", it could be extraposition with "it" as > dummy subject. Finally, "would it? " has been > variously labeled, but I use "question tag" as > it reverses the polarity of the statement seeking for agreement. Sergio > >Il gio 30 nov 2023, 18:44 Gay Claiborne ><[log in to unmask]> ha scritto: > >Not an adverb clause; rather, it’s a noun >clause functioning as direct object of the verb “knew.†>Sent from my iPhone > >On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Scott Woods ><[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > >Dear List, >What is going on in the bold section of the >adverb clause below? Specifically, how are the >two clauses related to each other? >Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence? >If we knew what it was we were doing, it would >not be called research, would it?  (attributed to Albert Einstein) >Thanks, >Scott Woods >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please >visit the list's web interface at: >http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland >select "Join or leave the list" >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please >visit the list's web interface at: >http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland >select "Join or leave the list" >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please >visit the list's web interface at: >http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland >select "Join or leave the list" >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 14:41:14 -0500 >From: "C. Beth Burch" <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Re: [External Email] Re: grammar question > >Hi All, > >I might also add that *it* and *what we were doing* are in apposition >within a cleft sentence (or a cleft clause). The two parts of the cleft are >joined by the linking verb *was*. > >All the bolded text is the direct object of the verb *knew,* making the >overall pattern of the sentence S_V_O. > >And of course the subordinator *If *merely introduces the clause and makes >the entire utterance conditional. > >Regards, >Beth Burch > > > >*********************************************** >Dr. C. Beth Burch | Chair and Professor >Judaic Studies Department | Binghamton University, SUNY >LT 1308 | [log in to unmask] >https://www.binghamton.edu/judaic-studies/profile.html? ><https://www.binghamton.edu/judaic-studies/profile.html?id=bburc> > >“In the dark times > > will there also be singing? > > Yes, there will also be singing. > > About the dark times.†> > —Berthold Brecht > > >On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 2:15 PM Sergio Pizziconi <[log in to unmask]> >wrote: > > > I agree with the DirObj reading of the subordinate. > > Then, since the first part could be rewritten as "if we knew what we were > > doing was...", it could be extraposition with "it" as dummy subject. > > Finally, "would it? " has been variously labeled, but I use "question tag" > > as it reverses the polarity of the statement seeking for agreement. > > Sergio > > > > > > Il gio 30 nov 2023, 18:44 Gay Claiborne <[log in to unmask]> ha > > scritto: > > > >> Not an adverb clause; rather, it’s a noun clause functioning as direct > >> object of the verb “knew.†> >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >> On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Scott Woods < > >> [log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> > >>  > >> Dear List, > >> > >> What is going on in the bold section of the adverb clause below? > >> Specifically, how are the two clauses related to each other? > >> > >> Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence? > >> > >> *If we knew what it was we were doing*, it would not be called research, > >> would it? (attributed to Albert Einstein) > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Scott Woods > >> > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > >> "Join or leave the list" > >> > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >> > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > >> "Join or leave the list" > >> > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface > > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or > > leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >------------------------------ > >Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:34:39 -0800 >From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]> >Subject: Re: grammar question/clause within noun clause > >Labeling these noun clauses, etc. is of course, the traditional >terminology, but those labels are potentially misleading. These are >fused relatives (in the terminology of CGEL), and this means they are >grammatically speaking noun _phrases_ (which contain clauses). I'm not >going to defend that analysis here (see CGEL Chapter 12 for the >details), but it appears to me a more adequate description than the >traditional one. > >Recognizing "what it was" as a NP makes the relationship to "we were >doing" fairly straightforward. The latter is an ordinary relative clause >and functions as a modifier to the fused relative/NP (compare "what it >was [that] we were doing" with "the activity [that] we were doing"). > >On 11/30/2023 11:21 AM, Scott Woods wrote: > > Thanks. > > > > I'm really interested in the relationship between "what it was" and > > "what we were doing." These function together as a noun clause. But we > > could also say "if we knew what we were doing" or "if we knew what it > > was." There are two clauses within the noun clause. What is the > > structure? > > > > Scott > > > > On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 11:16:21 AM MST, Sergio Pizziconi > > <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > > > > > > I agree with the DirObj reading of the subordinate. > > Then, since the first part could be rewritten as "if we knew what we > > were doing was...", it could be extraposition with "it" as dummy subject. > > Finally, "would it? " has been variously labeled, but I use "question > > tag" as it reverses the polarity of the statement seeking for agreement. > > Sergio > > > > > > Il gio 30 nov 2023, 18:44 Gay Claiborne <[log in to unmask]> > > ha scritto: > > > > Not an adverb clause; rather, it’s a noun clause functioning as > > direct object of the verb “knew.†> > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Scott Woods > >> <[log in to unmask]> wrote: > >> > >>  > >> Dear List, > >> / > >> / > >> What is going on in the bold section of the adverb clause below? > >> Specifically, how are the two clauses related to each other? > >> > >> Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence? > >> > >> /If we knew *what it was we were doing*/, it would not be called > >> research, would it? (attributed to Albert Einstein) > >> > >> Thanks, > >> > >> Scott Woods > >> > >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > >> select "Join or leave the list" > >> > >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >> > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and > > select "Join or leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > > "Join or leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web > > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select > > "Join or leave the list" > > > > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > > > >To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: > http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html >and select "Join or leave the list" > >Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/ > >------------------------------ > >End of ATEG Digest - 26 Oct 2023 to 30 Nov 2023 (#2023-6) >********************************************************* To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or leave the list" Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/