No where did I question the identification of the
  Eurasian Collared-Doves in West Manchester. I did express
  an interest in why a simply pale (later termed piebald) bird
  was assumed to be something else without mention of
  size/structure ... features typically less prone to variation than
  plumage.

  >>> a careful observation of plumage characteristics would serve to
separate Ringed Turtle-Dove from Eurasian Collared-Dove (Euco dove).

  and it did so ... my point was that it may have also led you past the
  identification of one of the birds presuming it to be something else.

>>>As I understand it, Ringed Turtle-Dove is a product of human domestication that does not occur naturally in the wild.

  As Bill Whan brought out, there is some argument over that point. Wichita
  Falls TX lies 50 miles or so south of Lawton, OK, and Iowa
  Park is an outlying community a few miles down the road from Wichita Falls.
  In Birds of Southwestern Oklahoma and North Central Texas by Dr. J.D
  Tyler (2005), there are listings for 44 "Ringed Turtle-Doves" on the Wichita Falls CBC in Dec 2002, and 51 in Iowa Park 19 Dec 1998, apparently owing to a local
  release. There is a 1980 record of one bird for Lawton.

  Clearly, one hypothesis for a source of abberation in Lawton Eurasian
  Collared Doves (to which I alluded to earlier) is a recent history of crossing with these birds ... although to date no pure "Ringed Turtle-Doves" have been seen any closer than the sites in TX. And my Oct 2007 forays to Wichita Falls and Iowa Park met only with text-book Eurasian Collared-Doves. Nor in documenting
  these doves through a 12 county swath of sw. oklahoma these past 3 years have
  I encountered any domestic dove forms nor querying members of the public brought to light any turtle-doves ... although I have learned that ECDOs are cannon fodder for local BB gun-toting 10-12 yr old boys and that the birds "taste like chicken".

  >>>Like many domestic animals it is quite
variable in appearance as a result of human breeders selecting for traits that
they deem desirable. Some of the plumage variation can be seen at this
dove-breeders' webpage (http://tinyurl.com/2hw5vs).

>>>The Eurasian Collared-Dove is a Old World species that is actively colonizing
North America following its release in the Bahamas in the 1970's. Barring
mutations, it occurs in a single wild type (at least for our practical purposes
in Ohio).

  Ok ... no argument here.

  >>>They can be readily separated from Mourning Doves by their larger
size, paler plumage, squared tail, and hind-collar. Separation from Ringed
Turtle-Dove is less trivial, but two plumage characteristics have been
emphasized as key sorting criteria:

  I grant the key criteria ... never questioned it. I questioned wing color as
  presented  in NGS owing to the extent of leucism I have seen in what
  otherwise appear to be Eurasian Collared-Doves. Therefore, I wanted to know
  why was size/structure of the pale bird, presumably seen near the Eurasian Collared-Doves, not mentioned within the context of rejecting it from Eurasian Collared-Dove. If it was the same size as that of the others, then how can it be S.
  roseogrisea? ... it is that implied conclusion from which I took the opportunity
  to bring up the variation I see in sw. Oklahoma within what APPEARS to
  be an exploding population of Eurasian Collared-Doves.

>>>Second, the undertail coverts of the Ringed Turtle Dove are pale and are
concolorous with the lower belly of the bird and the underside of the tail. The
base of the underside of the tail may be dark brown to black, but this black
portion is quite restricted, if it is present at all, and does not approach the
tip of the undertail coverts. In Eurasian Collared Doves, the undertail coverts
are dark gray/brown and contrast with the pale distal portion of the undertail.
The underside of the tail has an extensive dark brown/black base that extends
almost to or a little beyond the undertail coverts.

  >>>Furthermore, the dark portion of the tail extends along the outer web of the outer tail feathers well beyond the undertail coverts.

  A trait evident in the piebald bird - referring to the photo by John Habig. So
  should we reject that last one as valid?

>>>These traits of the underparts are not always easily seen on doves due to their
penchant for ground-feeding, but with patience one can usually get the
necessary looks.

  Like Mourning Doves, Eurasian Collared Doves will sit on wires
  late in the afternoon before going to roost and occasionally
  will rest there in groups before dispersing of a morning. Of course,
  the point is taken that vagrants, initially at least, may often be
  studied at feeders.

  >>>Even with a relatively brief look, discriminating between dark
vs. light undertail coverts, extensive vs. minor dark undertail base, and the
presence or absence of dark outer webs on the undertail is readily
accomplished. I've assumed that making these distinctions allows the confident
separation of the two species even when they're not vocalizing.

>>>Vic calls this into question. Given his vastly greater experience with the
species, it's hardly surprising that he's seen a greater range of variation
than I have, and I'm happy to have this variation called to my attention. I'm
just not sure what the import of this variation is, or how it impacts my
ability to recognize European Collared-Doves in the field.

  Only that we need to be open-minded regarding variation.

>>The parts of Vic's post that I find most perplexing are

> I have had the experience of looking at 12 Eurasian
> Collared-Doves lined up on a wire in my Lawton, OK
> backyard and no two were alike.

>>>My question is "How did you know there was only one species?". Were all 12
vocalizing, or do you have some other sorting criteria?

  Good question. This particular episode took place while living at
  the easternmost portion of Lawton in 2004 (which means I need
  to correct a statement earlier that I have seen this variation for
  only 3 years ... should read 4 years). They were of a local flock
  of 16 roosting nearby for months. Most dispersing throughout the neighborhood
  daily so I rarely caught this many side-by-side. Several kept to the yard.
  The birds, in close proximity, and with close scrutiny, formed a
  gradation of shades with some darker than commonly depicted and
  some paler. Yes, several were calling ... courting seems to pre-occupy
  much of day for a EUCO April through Oct ... as to the rest, giving they
  were the subject of this attention and that they were the same size and
  structure, and the fundamental distinction of the undertail held (albeit
  with some paler than others) I saw this as evidence they were like species but
  clearly a hybrid genotype is not excluded nor have I ever rejected it.
  But as birders we can only focus on the phenotype (what we see)
  and the underlying question here is what field characters fall within
  variation and what may be of an immediate consequence of
  hybridization. This  we still need to tease apart.

> I frequently observed birds [Eurasian Collared-Doves]
> with plumage variation akin to that seen in Rock
> Pigeons.

>>>Are you implying that Euco doves can't be recognized based on plumage
characteristics, or merely that some "good" Euco doves mimic Ringed
Turtle-Doves?

  Sorry for the confusion ... I imply neither .... only that what appear
  to be perfectly good Eurasian Collared-Doves ... paired with text-book
  birds, exhibiting similar behaviour/calls, and sporting the under-tail
  pattern oft cited, will exhibit variation such as white primaries,
  or have other parts washed out in color ... in a manner seen
  in Rock Pigeons, or for that matter juncos, etc.

  Remember i did say I had little to go on with regard to the physical
  description given of the pale bird in West Manchester. All I read was that it was pale ... Subsequently,I have seen photos suplied by John Habig showing the piebald bird roosting in the same posture as two immediately adjacent
  typical Eurasian Collared-Doves. The piebald bird is of the size and structure of the Eurasian Collared-Doves nearby which I find curious but hardly conclusive
  of anything.

  >>>Isn't it more likely that all this plumage variation is a result
of domestic varieties of Ringed Turtle Dove escaping to the wild where they
begin to regress away from the named types illustrated on the dove breeders'
webpage. What allows you to be sure that such aberrant forms are Euco doves?
What's the sorting criteria?

  I'm not sure .. that is my point.... they exhibit the undertail pattern, appear
  in the company with textbook ECDO, with many apparently paired. Their flight
  style and vocalizations are that of ECDO ...
  and they persist over years ... and if we are talking about recent pairings with
  S. roseogrisea .. that too serves my point ... that what is evolving
  as Eurasian Collared-Dove in North America is a departure from the
  original stock and we should be prepared to examine such
  departures closely.

> Pale birds of
> large size in the past have been dismissed owing to
> their departure from the "wild type" depicted in field
> guides for Eurasian Collared Doves.

>>>Isn't this the appropriate null hypothesis?

  YES. Hence my proviso that records committees will want to err
  on the side of caution. That out of the way, I thought to focus
  on the biological implications of the variation.

  >>>Shouldn't we assume a bird not
matching the characteristics of Euco Dove is not a Euco Dove?

  I don't like to assume anything.

>>>This sentence also seems to suggest that Eurasian Collared-Dove exists in
multiple varieties as does the Ringed Turtle Dove.

  Sorry if it does ... I have no evidence that it does ... merely wished to
  point to plumage variation to be seen by anyone visiting my bank,
  or the Walmart in Lawton Oklahoma on any given day. That variation
  appears within birds that to the best of my awareness do not approach Ringed
  Turtle-Dove as depicted in field guides. I do not  know the
  basis of this variation and only can offer some plausible explanations
  ... thus I am somewhat surprised that this should warrant
  the following comment ...

  >>>Ringed Turtle Doves are
variable because they're domesticants maintained by human-controlled selective
breeding. I'm not aware that Euco Doves have been domesticated. They're not
even considered the wild progenitor of Ringed Turtle Dove. African
Collared-Dove (Streptopelia roseogrisea) currently has that distinction. Why do
you think there are other "types" of Euco Dove? How do you know they're not
Ringed Turtle Doves regressing towards their wild type, or hybrids?

  Now I'm lost ... what other types ... I am trying to suggest there can be
  the same the variation that we see with anything ... at the very least, and this
  variation may have at its root specific genetic mechanisms, including
  introgression with S. roseogrisea domestic stock.

>>> Another way of asking this is "When should I think a dove departing from the
"wild type" Euco dove is, in fact, still a Euco Dove?"

  We don't know that yet. I never said I had the answers here. I am
  asking questions ... starting with why the assumption that when
  presented with a pale bird accompanying 3 apparent Eurasian Collared-Doves
  is automatically something else ... I mean what are the odds that a
  Ringed Turtle-Dove hooked up with 3 Eurasian Collard-Doves in
  West Manchester, OH? Again, I am only asking questions ...
  perhaps the odds are quite good for all I know. Furthermore, I do not
mean to imply anything regarding the identification of the piebald bird ...
  although where one observer will see it as of a domesticated
  stock or hybrid thereof based upon plumage, another may see
  a leucistic Eurasian Collared-Dove based upon size/structure
  ... and neither can know short of a DNA sample.

  ... wishing to conclude that we keep an open mind ...

>>>Lastly, are you suggesting we have can only separate the two species by
vocalization?

  I made no such suggestion nor can I see where I may have implied
  that. Indeed, I never addressed separation of the two ... As I
  opened in my earlier post today, current criteria will lead you to the
  identification of Eurasian Collared-Dove ... and quite possibly right past
  a few abberrant birds that see themselves as the same species.

  To the field guide criteria, I will say that courtship flight is another
  good character.

  I trust I have left you all thoroughly confused ... but not to worry
  most of us in Ohio will be shooing ECDOs or whatever they may be
  off our bird feeders in about 10 years or so.

  cheers

  Vic Fazio
  Shaker Hts, OH
  ... my apologies in advance if I do not immediate respond further
  on this thread ... I am winter atlassing in southeast Ohio again
  this week ...

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