The "would it" part is a result of incorrect punctuation.
It should be a separate question sentence in response
to the other part.
Albert E. Krahn
[log in to unmask]
At 11:00 PM 11/30/2023, you wrote:
>There are 7 messages totaling 1305 lines in this issue.
>
>Topics of the day:
>
> 1. grammar question (4)
> 2. grammar question/clause within noun clause (2)
> 3. [External Email] Re: grammar question
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 16:54:12 +0000
>From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: grammar question
>
>Dear List,
>What is going on in the bold section of the
>adverb clause below? Specifically, how are the
>two clauses related to each other?Â
>Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence?
>If we knew what it was we were doing, it would
>not be called research, would it?  (attributed to Albert Einstein)
>Thanks,
>Scott Woods
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:44:08 -0500
>From: Gay Claiborne <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: grammar question
>
>Not an adverb clause; rather, it’s a noun
>clause functioning as direct object of the verb “knew.â€
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
> > On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Scott Woods
> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Dear List,
> >
> > What is going on in the bold section of the
> adverb clause below? Specifically, how are the
> two clauses related to each other?
> >
> > Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence?
> >
> > If we knew what it was we were doing, it
> would not be called research, would it? (attributed to Albert Einstein)
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Scott Woods
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
> visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
> and select "Join or leave the list"
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 19:16:00 +0100
>From: Sergio Pizziconi <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: grammar question
>
>I agree with the DirObj reading of the subordinate.
>Then, since the first part could be rewritten as "if we knew what we were
>doing was...", it could be extraposition with "it" as dummy subject.
>Finally, "would it? " has been variously labeled, but I use "question tag"
>as it reverses the polarity of the statement seeking for agreement.
>Sergio
>
>
>Il gio 30 nov 2023, 18:44 Gay Claiborne <[log in to unmask]> ha
>scritto:
>
> > Not an adverb clause; rather, it’s a noun clause functioning as direct
> > object of the verb “knew.â€
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> > On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Scott Woods <
> > [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> > 
> > Dear List,
> >
> > What is going on in the bold section of the adverb clause below?
> > Specifically, how are the two clauses related to each other?
> >
> > Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence?
> >
> > *If we knew what it was we were doing*, it would not be called research,
> > would it? (attributed to Albert Einstein)
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Scott Woods
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> > leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> > leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 18:49:46 +0000
>From: "Turner, Tildon L." <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: grammar question
>
>It’s a noun clause.
>
>TIl
>
>Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
>________________________________
>From: Assembly for the Teaching of English
>Grammar <[log in to unmask]> on behalf of
>Gay Claiborne <[log in to unmask]>
>Sent: Thursday, November 30, 2023 12:44:08 PM
>To: [log in to unmask] <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: grammar question
>
>Caution: This is an external email. Safety and
>security should be considered when clicking links or opening attachments.
>You don't often get email from
>[log in to unmask] Learn why this is
>important<https://aka.ms/LearnAboutSenderIdentification>
>Not an adverb clause; rather, it’s a noun
>clause functioning as direct object of the verb “knew.â€
>
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Scott Woods
><[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>Dear List,
>
>What is going on in the bold section of the
>adverb clause below? Specifically, how are the
>two clauses related to each other?
>
>Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence?
>
>If we knew what it was we were doing, it would
>not be called research, would it? (attributed to Albert Einstein)
>
>Thanks,
>
>Scott Woods
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>visit the list's web interface at:
>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>visit the list's web interface at:
>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 19:21:37 +0000
>From: Scott Woods <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: grammar question/clause within noun clause
>
> Thanks.
>I'm really interested in the relationship
>between "what it was" and "what we were doing."
>These function together as a noun clause. But we
>could also say "if we knew what we were doing"
>or "if we knew what it was." There are two
>clauses within the noun clause. What is the structure?Â
>Scott
> On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 11:16:21
> AM MST, Sergio Pizziconi <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
> I agree with the DirObj reading of the
> subordinate.Then, since the first part could be
> rewritten as "if we knew what we were doing
> was...", it could be extraposition with "it" as
> dummy subject. Finally, "would it? " has been
> variously labeled, but I use "question tag" as
> it reverses the polarity of the statement seeking for agreement. SergioÂ
>
>Il gio 30 nov 2023, 18:44 Gay Claiborne
><[log in to unmask]> ha scritto:
>
>Not an adverb clause; rather, it’s a noun
>clause functioning as direct object of the verb “knew.â€
>Sent from my iPhone
>
>On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Scott Woods
><[log in to unmask]> wrote:
>
>
>
>Dear List,
>What is going on in the bold section of the
>adverb clause below? Specifically, how are the
>two clauses related to each other?Â
>Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence?
>If we knew what it was we were doing, it would
>not be called research, would it?  (attributed to Albert Einstein)
>Thanks,
>Scott Woods
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>visit the list's web interface at:
>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland
>select "Join or leave the list"
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>visit the list's web interface at:
>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland
>select "Join or leave the list"
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please
>visit the list's web interface at:
>http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.htmland
>select "Join or leave the list"
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 14:41:14 -0500
>From: "C. Beth Burch" <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: [External Email] Re: grammar question
>
>Hi All,
>
>I might also add that *it* and *what we were doing* are in apposition
>within a cleft sentence (or a cleft clause). The two parts of the cleft are
>joined by the linking verb *was*.
>
>All the bolded text is the direct object of the verb *knew,* making the
>overall pattern of the sentence S_V_O.
>
>And of course the subordinator *If *merely introduces the clause and makes
>the entire utterance conditional.
>
>Regards,
>Beth Burch
>
>
>
>***********************************************
>Dr. C. Beth Burch | Chair and Professor
>Judaic Studies Department | Binghamton University, SUNY
>LT 1308 | [log in to unmask]
>https://www.binghamton.edu/judaic-studies/profile.html?
><https://www.binghamton.edu/judaic-studies/profile.html?id=bburc>
>
>“In the dark times
>
> will there also be singing?
>
> Yes, there will also be singing.
>
> About the dark times.â€
>
> —Berthold Brecht
>
>
>On Thu, Nov 30, 2023 at 2:15 PM Sergio Pizziconi <[log in to unmask]>
>wrote:
>
> > I agree with the DirObj reading of the subordinate.
> > Then, since the first part could be rewritten as "if we knew what we were
> > doing was...", it could be extraposition with "it" as dummy subject.
> > Finally, "would it? " has been variously labeled, but I use "question tag"
> > as it reverses the polarity of the statement seeking for agreement.
> > Sergio
> >
> >
> > Il gio 30 nov 2023, 18:44 Gay Claiborne <[log in to unmask]> ha
> > scritto:
> >
> >> Not an adverb clause; rather, it’s a noun clause functioning as direct
> >> object of the verb “knew.â€
> >>
> >> Sent from my iPhone
> >>
> >> On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Scott Woods <
> >> [log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >> Dear List,
> >>
> >> What is going on in the bold section of the adverb clause below?
> >> Specifically, how are the two clauses related to each other?
> >>
> >> Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence?
> >>
> >> *If we knew what it was we were doing*, it would not be called research,
> >> would it? (attributed to Albert Einstein)
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Scott Woods
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> >> "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> >> "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface
> > at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select "Join or
> > leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>------------------------------
>
>Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2023 12:34:39 -0800
>From: Karl Hagen <[log in to unmask]>
>Subject: Re: grammar question/clause within noun clause
>
>Labeling these noun clauses, etc. is of course, the traditional
>terminology, but those labels are potentially misleading. These are
>fused relatives (in the terminology of CGEL), and this means they are
>grammatically speaking noun _phrases_ (which contain clauses). I'm not
>going to defend that analysis here (see CGEL Chapter 12 for the
>details), but it appears to me a more adequate description than the
>traditional one.
>
>Recognizing "what it was" as a NP makes the relationship to "we were
>doing" fairly straightforward. The latter is an ordinary relative clause
>and functions as a modifier to the fused relative/NP (compare "what it
>was [that] we were doing" with "the activity [that] we were doing").
>
>On 11/30/2023 11:21 AM, Scott Woods wrote:
> > Thanks.
> >
> > I'm really interested in the relationship between "what it was" and
> > "what we were doing." These function together as a noun clause. But we
> > could also say "if we knew what we were doing" or "if we knew what it
> > was." There are two clauses within the noun clause. What is the
> > structure?
> >
> > Scott
> >
> > On Thursday, November 30, 2023 at 11:16:21 AM MST, Sergio Pizziconi
> > <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I agree with the DirObj reading of the subordinate.
> > Then, since the first part could be rewritten as "if we knew what we
> > were doing was...", it could be extraposition with "it" as dummy subject.
> > Finally, "would it? " has been variously labeled, but I use "question
> > tag" as it reverses the polarity of the statement seeking for agreement.
> > Sergio
> >
> >
> > Il gio 30 nov 2023, 18:44 Gay Claiborne <[log in to unmask]>
> > ha scritto:
> >
> > Not an adverb clause; rather, it’s a noun clause functioning as
> > direct object of the verb “knew.â€
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Nov 30, 2023, at 11:54 AM, Scott Woods
> >> <[log in to unmask]> wrote:
> >>
> >> 
> >> Dear List,
> >> /
> >> /
> >> What is going on in the bold section of the adverb clause below?
> >> Specifically, how are the two clauses related to each other?
> >>
> >> Also, how would you explain the "would it?" part of the sentence?
> >>
> >> /If we knew *what it was we were doing*/, it would not be called
> >> research, would it? (attributed to Albert Einstein)
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> Scott Woods
> >>
> >> To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> >> interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> >> select "Join or leave the list"
> >>
> >> Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >>
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and
> > select "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> > "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
> > To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web
> > interface at: http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html and select
> > "Join or leave the list"
> >
> > Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
> >
>
>To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
> http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
>and select "Join or leave the list"
>
>Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
>
>------------------------------
>
>End of ATEG Digest - 26 Oct 2023 to 30 Nov 2023 (#2023-6)
>*********************************************************
To join or leave this LISTSERV list, please visit the list's web interface at:
http://listserv.muohio.edu/archives/ateg.html
and select "Join or leave the list"
Visit ATEG's web site at http://ateg.org/
|
